View Full Version : downshifting to a stop?
while leaving work and crossing the street yesterday noticed a biker coming to a stop at the light. i noticed that when he was slowing down he just grabbed his clutch in and slowly started downshifting through what seemed to be about 4 gears? never opening the clutch lever for each gear to wind down in? i though if anyone was riding like this some advise my help.not sure if this is right but iv been riding like this for years. when dwnshftng let the clutch out and let the engine slow you down. do this through each gear, until finally getting to first gear by that time your stopped. imo better for the trans. also this teaches you how to time the dwnshfts acording to how much distance you have left to stop. this is great practice for street and track. timing your distance to your stop with however many gears you have left to downshift to.(good track practice)!then blippin throttle comes next!
rockertom
10-01-2006, 08:12 AM
Yup downshifting works for me. Plus the sound of the exhaust with a tire chirp never hurt.
snook
10-01-2006, 08:24 AM
I do either.
But, my newbie friend,
just got his first bike.
I told he could just shift through
them all to get back to first while
holding the clutch in.
I also said "just don't let go of the
clutch or you're screwed".
MianoSM
10-01-2006, 10:08 AM
Clutch?
Evt2718
10-01-2006, 10:35 AM
good advise, most of the time i downshift, sometimes i get lazy.
HeWhoIs
10-01-2006, 10:38 AM
Personally, I think that the most important thing is to be in the right gear for whatever speed you are going, however you do it. IOW, don't hold the clutch in and shift all the way down to 1st while still doing 50mph. Also, don't hold the clutch in and stay in 6th gear till the very end. Shift down gradually as you slow down so that if you need to pull out of the way quickly you are in the power band.
If it is a loooong gradual stop, like I see a red light way in front of me, then I will do as Moke suggested and downshift a gear and let the engine slow me down some until I need to shift down another gear to slow down more, and so on.
If it's a quick stop, I just hold the clutch in and shift down as needed to match the speed.
Many oldtimers (I'm not an oldtimer, just quoting 'em ;)) will say that the brakes are for braking and that the engine is for going. I generally follow that.
Yes Too Much Engine Brake Not Good Without Slipper Clutch, But Iam More So Talking About The Coming To A Light And Slowing From Say 50mph.go Through The Gears.
But Like Say At The Race Track, Its For Me Totally Different I Grab The Clutch And Dwnshft And Blip All In One Motion There Is Alot Of Time To Be Cut From Lap Times By Compressing Your Downshifting Duties!
Big E
10-01-2006, 02:20 PM
Most of the time i downshift, sometimes i get lazy!!!
Tarbaby
10-01-2006, 02:37 PM
for a normal stop, I'll downshift "normally" but then leave her in neutral and brake the last bit to a stop. for a quick stop I'll leave the clutch in and downshift. IMO, its good to know how to when needed. had to use it last night and its a relief when you're dodging debris, flying bike and a rider... or whatever may be in your path.
Wicked1
10-01-2006, 10:55 PM
+1
for a normal stop, I'll downshift "normally" but then leave her in neutral and brake the last bit to a stop. for a quick stop I'll leave the clutch in and downshift. IMO, its good to know how to when needed. had to use it last night and its a relief when you're dodging debris, flying bike and a rider... or whatever may be in your path.
i believe that downshifting and braking stops you quicker than if you just put it in nuetral and slam the brakes on! what do you guys think?
Knine
10-31-2006, 09:57 PM
Coming to a Stop.....Wouldn't the combo of Front & Back Brakes....Be Best for the Bike?
To tell u the truth, I don't put to much thought into it....I just Stop! lol
mustangman70
10-31-2006, 10:06 PM
I downshifted through the gears when comign to a light also when i could or when ever it was good to do so..
Obviously a quick stop isnt a good time to practice this ;)
ctate
11-01-2006, 07:55 AM
I'm usually only in 3rd gear anyway when I'm in traffic. So I just downshift to neutral and let the clutch out, then coast to the light. I don't normally "engine break" my bike.
The problem with "engine breaking" on the street is, if it's done for to long you can put too much unnecessary stress on the crank.
Downshifting and blipping the throttle when at a fast pace are for matching your road speed, engine speed and gear when entering a turn.
Engine breaking is when you use your engine to slow the bike and NOT the breaks.
i believe that downshifting and braking stops you quicker than if you just put it in nuetral and slam the brakes on! what do you guys think?
JMO but my engine is not going to stop me faster than my breaks.:occasion1
POWDER-P
11-02-2006, 05:40 PM
i like downshifting when coming to a stop,the slipper clutch is awesome.
Azazel
11-02-2006, 06:07 PM
I downshift everytime...and always clutch down
I'm usually only in 3rd gear anyway when I'm in traffic. So I just downshift to neutral and let the clutch out, then coast to the light. I don't normally "engine break" my bike.
The problem with "engine breaking" on the street is, if it's done for to long you can put too much unnecessary stress on the crank.
Downshifting and blipping the throttle when at a fast pace are for matching your road speed, engine speed and gear when entering a turn.
Engine breaking is when you use your engine to slow the bike and NOT the breaks.
JMO but my engine is not going to stop me faster than my breaks.:occasion1
engine breaking?.... engine breaking is when your using UNECESSARY engine brake force to slow you down!And you can be using the brakes but still be using to much engine to slow you down.(bad4engine). When blipping the throttle you must let the clutch out at some point.This is how i use it. In moderation not using the engine to slow you down!Your using the brakes. but a small part of the engine is slowing you down in every corner making it able to transfer smoothly into the next gear down! When you use it this way as to not abuse your engine your crank shaft will be fine!!! And as for the street and doing this when coming to a stop, It will work IMO better for your engine!!! Instead of using your brakes and wearing out your suspension.Now keep in mind Iam still saying that your brakes are doing mostly all of the stopping!!! Your just having to let out the clutch at the last min.IMO better for your engine.Its easier to match the speed when downshifting. THIS WILL STOP YOU MUCH QUICKER THAN JUST SLAMMING ON YOUR BRAKES!USE BOTH TGETHER(practice it!)when your stopped you CAN'T get all the way to first gear when the bike isnt rolling if your in 4th???Also when appling both brakes and down shifting the track will wear your crank out much more than doing this on the street or even in brooksville faster is always harder on parts not slower. even if your using more engine to stop you than brakes.(the wrong way!) The street is slower and less harmful, high speed will always wear parts more rapidly.hope this rant helps.
but my bottom line is that using the engine and downshifting properly will stop you much faster than just braking.imo! wanna test it?
ctate
11-05-2006, 09:10 PM
From your original post...
when dwnshftng let the clutch out and let the engine slow you down. do this through each gear, until finally getting to first gear by that time your stopped.
From your response to mine....
engine breaking is when your using UNECESSARY engine brake force to slow you down!
What you posted in the first clip is engine breaking and I agree it is UNNECESSARY to use in traffic or on the street when your at a NORMAL riding pace..
I mean no disrespect. I just think that unless your going to explain in detail the pros and cons of any track technique to a Newbie for them to apply on the street you have to make sure that the person reading can understand you 100%.
Biggest issue I see with your post is you didn't warn what would happen or explain the proper way to apply the engine break technique. You have to match your road speed to your engine speed and let the clutch out slow and even. If using your advice wrong could cause the rear tire to hop or step out and IMO a Newbie would have a hard time with that. using the engine to slow your bike down in traffic is NOT a good Idea IMO. Unless you need to come to an emergency stop and then you need to know how to handle the wheel hop or the rear tire moving around. I haven't even touched on what could happen to the motor if this was done wrong... or False neutrals
Bottom line No matter what. I know that all sportbike motors are made to rev up not down. that's why "cruising" your sportbike is bad as well since it can cause the cylinders to Glaze over.
If your in traffic and on a bike like mine (1000cc) and your in 4th gear your either running it with the motor RPM too low or your Flying around in traffic recklessly.
So since I'm only in 3rd gear anyways(50-70mph @ 6-8000 RPM), I see no reason to put any unnecessary stress on my motor just to bring my bike to a stop.
Now when I'm on the track or at a high rate of speed then yes I will use my engine to break in to a corner or hold my line in a turn if I get wide.
But in normal US19 or 301 traffic, I say save the engine breaking for another time.
But if someone feels comfortable engine breaking like you explained then fine, the best part of riding is there is no one technique for doing it. we all have our own style and riding habits. I'm not saying your right or wrong, I'm just saying I'm on the other side of the fence with you on this. But I've also been on your side of the fence in other posts you have made.
IMO your a great rider that can help allot.
I just think you should explain the pros and cons better so you can reach a broader audience(Newbie to Experienced).
IMO, If a rider don't understand how to down shift correctly then they will surely screw up engine Breaking :occasion1
CandyCane
11-05-2006, 09:27 PM
OK here is my input. Im applying this as an experienced truck driver, over 10 years now and I haul the biggest of big stuff, often the load ways more than 200,000 lbs. Lets say I only used my brakes to stop in traffic. That cute little girlfriend you enjoy coming home to would quickly be um..DEAD. ALL brakes heat up rapidly. In the case of motorcycles, they arent enclosed, so they cool rapidly, allowing more efficient braking. In a truck, they are drums, and hold heat, thereby fading when overused. Engine braking is CRITICAL, it truly increases the stopping ability of the brakes, many times over. Trucks have a literal ENGINE BRAKE, called a jacobs brake(after the inventor). It uses exhaust to sort of "retard" the cylinders of the engine, thereby slowing the truck.I also downshift at the same time, to keep the engine brake at its peak. The end result, I barely use the brakes. They are reserved for the dyk that cuts me off. Now, as I have said in the past, I apply this method on my bike as well, mostly due to habit. I dont just pick a gear and dump the clutch, I use the brakes primarily, because I know they are so efficient. I downshift mostly to maintain my powerband, incase I need to make a quick get away from a bad situation. Also, rather than pound my brakes and risk a lockup, I downshift and let the engine help me out. Truck engines ARE NOT modified to do this without damage, and it doesnt hurt them. They are larger yes, but given they handle over 2000 Ft lbs of torque, they are actually abused more. In the end, I do not think it will harm an engine unless done IMPROPERLY. If you let out the clutch, and hear a chirp, or the bike nearly bucks you off, you did it wrong. It should be as smooth as the upshift. Now I dont know shyt about the track, so maybe there its different. Generally speaking, I think its a great way to slow down in a controlled manner very quickly.
ctate
11-05-2006, 09:39 PM
OK here is my input. Im applying this as an experienced truck driver, over 10 years now and I haul the biggest of big stuff, often the load ways more than 200,000 lbs. Lets say I only used my brakes to stop in traffic. That cute little girlfriend you enjoy coming home to would quickly be um..DEAD. ALL brakes heat up rapidly. In the case of motorcycles, they arent enclosed, so they cool rapidly, allowing more efficient braking. In a truck, they are drums, and hold heat, thereby fading when overused. Engine braking is CRITICAL, it truly increases the stopping ability of the brakes, many times over. Trucks have a literal ENGINE BRAKE, called a jacobs brake(after the inventor). It uses exhaust to sort of "retard" the cylinders of the engine, thereby slowing the truck.I also downshift at the same time, to keep the engine brake at its peak. The end result, I barely use the brakes. They are reserved for the dyk that cuts me off. Now, as I have said in the past, I apply this method on my bike as well, mostly due to habit. I dont just pick a gear and dump the clutch, I use the brakes primarily, because I know they are so efficient. I downshift mostly to maintain my powerband, incase I need to make a quick get away from a bad situation. Also, rather than pound my brakes and risk a lockup, I downshift and let the engine help me out. Truck engines ARE NOT modified to do this without damage, and it doesnt hurt them. They are larger yes, but given they handle over 2000 Ft lbs of torque, they are actually abused more. In the end, I do not think it will harm an engine unless done IMPROPERLY. If you let out the clutch, and hear a chirp, or the bike nearly bucks you off, you did it wrong. It should be as smooth as the upshift. Now I dont know shyt about the track, so maybe there its different. Generally speaking, I think its a great way to slow down in a controlled manner very quickly.
LOL, Now if my Bike was more than 200,000 lbs with Drum breaks I'd be right with you.
I've never had break fade on the street unless my pads or fluid was worn.
Plus if your really in an Oh Shit stopping moment on a bike, your engine will not help when the rear wheel is off the ground.
Over all excellent post CandyCane Gixxer...:occasion1
I have a question to pose to anyone who can answer it....
If 70% of stopping is Front breaks and 30% is rear as Keith Code teaches then what's the % for the engine???
CandyCane
11-05-2006, 09:47 PM
BONUS :) Seriously though, Oh shit moments shouldnt happen, but do. That little extra has help me out a few times. I never have fade. Well wait, i did this one time, and i paid dearly...anyway, it was due to tired worn brakes getting hot. Anyway, I would like a pros input on this. If im wrong, I will not only stand corrected, but will change my style in riding.
RickyNo
11-05-2006, 10:20 PM
im lazy...i nuetral that bitch and coast my ass to the light :)
Knine
11-05-2006, 10:24 PM
Doesn't Code say, The Engine is for "Accelerating" Only!
The_Jarhead
11-05-2006, 10:25 PM
Doesn't Code say, The Engine is for "Accelerating" Only!
:+1 Yes he does
ctate
11-05-2006, 10:35 PM
BONUS :) Seriously though, Oh shit moments shouldnt happen, but do. That little extra has help me out a few times. I never have fade. Well wait, i did this one time, and i paid dearly...anyway, it was due to tired worn brakes getting hot. Anyway, I would like a pros input on this. If im wrong, I will not only stand corrected, but will change my style in riding.
Honestly Moke is right when he says that you really shouldn't be pushing that hard on the street to hurt anything.
If your comfortable I wouldn't change anything about the way you ride unless your trying to get faster on the track.
Most street riding is about being safe, comfortable and most importantly having fun...
If engine breaking has been part of your style then by all means continue.
But if a person doesn't know about it then it should be done with care untill the rider gets used to it...
Keith Code says when we try different styles of riding it's always awkward at first and the rider should take it slow and get used to it before trying it at a fast pace.... I'm guessing he says this for rider safety reasons... If anyone is going to try this technequie on the street for the first time I suggest they try it on a not so busy road and do it a few times till they get the hang of it... Knowing when to use the engine and when not to is a skill every rider should know. IMO.
I down shift through the gears when comming to a stoplight. I hardly ever do it where the engine shoots up above 5k rpms. I brake to slow down enough before that. But one thing to remember is if you downshift while comming to the light and dont brake before that atleast press on either brake just a little to turn that brake light on, so The cager behind you sees you.
khafra
11-06-2006, 08:41 AM
I have a question to pose to anyone who can answer it....
If 70% of stopping is Front breaks and 30% is rear as Keith Code teaches then what's the % for the engine???
If my tenuous grasp of physics and bike mechanics holds true, the 30% for the rear would be split between the rear brake and the engine, in whatever proportion you choose to use.
Tetchy little influences like the way engine braking may upset the chassis more than the rear brake aren't considered in the above opinion.
The_Jarhead
11-06-2006, 09:34 AM
Braking in any form front/rear/engine will “upset the chassis” there is no way around that it’s the laws of physics at work.
IMO your engine should not be used for braking at all. As Code explains the engine is designed to make the bike go the brakes are designed to make the bike stop. Down shifting when coming to a stop or slowing down should be done to match the engine speed to the road speed.
Yeah i never explain myself very well in here? I guess my main point iam trying to make no matter how anyone comes to a stop is,I BELIEVE that using front brakes and downshifting will stop you much quicker than just grabing the brakes.I also beg anyone that is not familiar with this technique to practice it in a controlled enviornment.
Now there are alot of different things i have not even mentioned i was trying to keep it very general.But ctate i do use this when i ride on the street everyday, in normal traffic. I probly only go down to 2nd though, then grab the brakes, but theres where the general part of this conversation can go a zillion different ways like for example alot of times if i have to i am downshifting,braking,blipping and sometimes using the rear brake as well all simutaneously.I wanted to touch alot on this subject because when trying to avoid accidents imo its cructial to learn this technique!See iv smacked a few cars imt(inmytime) and what i learned was when i would use just the brakes to stop me.in normal conditions.no problem but if a car pull in front of me id freeze up and just grab the brakes? well i soon found out after racing that combining the two stops you much faster! It has save me countless times from hitting major objects. On the street and at the track. BUT in a suprise type of stop, iam using all of these controls at once. thats why i want people to try this and if anything make them aware of how the acually ride.and how they do it as to maybe improve.thnks ctate.we all got our own wayznviewz, peace!!!
MianoSM
11-06-2006, 10:39 AM
I down shift when coming into a corner - usually keeping the same speed and increasing my RPMs.....it gives me the feeling of more comfort knowing that I have the power and ability to do what I need to do......and just control.
The_Jarhead
11-06-2006, 10:49 AM
I have read increasing your RPMs in a turn does help your control due to Gyroscope affect.
Downshifting is performed to keep the engine in the powerband for any given speed.
plus 1 skip! i will say street downshifting and at a track is a bit diff!
ctate
11-06-2006, 03:46 PM
Yeah i never explain myself very well in here? I guess my main point iam trying to make no matter how anyone comes to a stop is,I BELIEVE that using front brakes and downshifting will stop you much quicker than just grabing the brakes.I also beg anyone that is not familiar with this technique to practice it in a controlled enviornment.
Now there are alot of different things i have not even mentioned i was trying to keep it very general.But ctate i do use this when i ride on the street everyday, in normal traffic. I probly only go down to 2nd though, then grab the brakes, but theres where the general part of this conversation can go a zillion different ways like for example alot of times if i have to i am downshifting,braking,blipping and sometimes using the rear brake as well all simutaneously.I wanted to touch alot on this subject because when trying to avoid accidents imo its cructial to learn this technique!See iv smacked a few cars imt(inmytime) and what i learned was when i would use just the brakes to stop me.in normal conditions.no problem but if a car pull in front of me id freeze up and just grab the brakes? well i soon found out after racing that combining the two stops you much faster! It has save me countless times from hitting major objects. On the street and at the track. BUT in a suprise type of stop, iam using all of these controls at once. thats why i want people to try this and if anything make them aware of how the acually ride.and how they do it as to maybe improve.thnks ctate.we all got our own wayznviewz, peace!!!
I feel ya Dawg...
I've seen riders do that and lose the rear and crash.
It's a skill that all riders learn though experiance but not many practice. I agree its something that Novice riders need to learn and the quicker they learn it the better off they are.
maybe TSB can hold a skills day. Seductive Cycles Holds Skill days in empty parking lots for our members. This topic could be an awesome Skills Day drill. If TSB wants to hold a skills day I'd be more than happy to come and learn something new myself.
:biker:
ctate
11-06-2006, 03:51 PM
I have read increasing your RPMs in a turn does help your control due to Gyroscope affect.
I believe that is true.
But if you downshift too low just to keep the RPMs up your going to sacrifice corner speed or you may have to learn the time honored skill of up shifting in a turn.
It's a balancing act getting the road speed, engine speed and corner speed all correct.
But when you do it feels oh so good...:occasion1
you guys hold a skillz day iam their! that way i can show instead of fvcking type!That/this sh!t is for the birds!Iam actually considering teaching an msf coarse but weekends are out so its kinda hard. i think one of the best practices on a sport bike for a normal street guy is slow manuvering, parking lot stuff. If you can balance it good enough in a parking lot and in a slow race. i.e tesla!(revenge is oh so sweet!)!or first gear lock to lock(steering) you'll be a good rider. It's almost the same as balancing it in a corner with your knee. good practice!...imo.
p.s and to the above comment, you must have a good knowledge of sencing speed time and distance when downshifting. This way you'll know when your doing it too much or not enough or perfectly.And by that i mean when you let the clutch out can you gadge your speed good enough to know weither your hurting yourself or helping yourself. Letting the clutch out to early in to low of a gear slows you down to much, the revs are to high have to wait to gain a good drive or upshift which by that time is too late!Or letting clutch out to late and being in to high of a gear in which case the rear tire is not driving you out of the corner! ?You must stay with in the power band to accomplish a good drive off the corner.(as skip mentioned)
On a road coarse each corner exit is critical to the next. which dictates everything going into the next turn!bad drive off one turn equals a bad entrance speed into the next turn.
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