If its down its done...

[Gecko]

**** This is a long but well worth it read...***

One of the most frequent questions I get about most of the products that I sell is "why are your products so much more expensive than other companies?"

most people are smart enough to discover that both Forcefield and Kriega are imported from England, and with the Value of the dollar lately and import fees, some price increase is obvious. but honestly if I were buying that wouldn't be enough for me. and it shouldnt be for you either.

I took a long look at the products and began to compare price VS value to other companies.

I even went so far as to send emails to every manufacturer I could think of. asking some simple questions.

while I still have not heard back from everyone, the ones I have heard back from all pretty much had the same thing to say. Below is a copy of the emails with ICON.

What is Icons
official policy on Armor that has been down?

While I understand that some protection is better than no protection, is
it treated in the same way as a helmet? "if its been down it should be
replaced"... Or is it only if there is visible damage, or serious damage
etc.

Thanks for your input.

Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for the email, Jim.

Gear, is much sturdier than the helmets. Because of
the inherent properties of leather and/or textile, a jacket or pair of
pants should be able to survive the same slide with gusto... assuming
you don't end up sliding over broken glass or into a wood chipper.
However, the shoulder and elbow armor in our jackets and pants is CE
armor-- one shot deal. Luckily, we do offer replacement armor and they
fit most jackets, but the fitment gets a bit iffy with our older items.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

(Name withheld),
Thanks for your quick reply.
One thing I was hoping to get specefics on was icons armor vest or
back protector... At what point would you recomend replacement?

Serious damage?
Like cracked plastic on the armadillo back?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Jim,

Back armor should be treated the same way as a helmet. Depending on the
nature and severity of the crash, it should be replaced after an
accident...

(name withheld)




Forcefields armor is re-usable by design. The text below is copied directly from their corporate site in the UK.

Many impact protection products on the market, which are sold as separates or fitted into the clothing you can buy off the dealers’ racks, are often manufactured from low-grade materials which can withstand only one impact before their protective capability is lost and, in some cases, such products have even been known to fall apart in normal wear. Not of much use in the rough and tumble common in many sports and leisure activities – the very incidents which render use of impact protection necessary!

By comparison, Forcefield protectors are durable, “multi-strike” products, which is why they are specified as original equipment in many premium quality brands and are worn by key professional sportsmen and women.

We all hope that going down never happens...

But when (not if) it does...

Lets consider s few things.
Based on MSRP prices, (I will be less than the listed price)


100$ icon:
not government rated for impact at all
by written admission on the website "Icon doesn't do roadracing"
it should be replaced after an accident.

http://rideicon.com/showImage.jsp?class_id=11075&image_type=fullsize&rank=200http://rideicon.com/showImage.jsp?class_id=11075&image_type=fullsize&rank=100



240$ Forcefield
CE level 2 Governemt rating for impact in both the UK and USA
Specified as original equipment in many premium quality brands and are worn by key professional sportsmen and women.
Durable, “multi-strike” products.

http://www.johnsonleather.com/images/Harness%20Flite%20Back%20Small.jpghttp://www.johnsonleather.com/images/Harness%20Flite%20Front%20Small.jpg

need more?
The following road racing reams are sponsored by Forcefield.
Rest assured, that if you go down at the Isle of Mann TT, replacing your armor isn't an option.


Ryan Farquhar
Ian Hutchinson
Gary Johnson
Olie Lindsell
MAR Team
Ed Smith
James McBride
Nick Clarke
Josh Wainwright

Lastly
If having a good company history even remotely helps to establish a companies reputation for Quality...This should be icing on the cake...

Colin Edwards had this to say about Forcefield Armor.
in an interview in 1993

"We were in the process of passing lapped traffic in turn two, a 100mph corner. The rider I was passing made a critical mistake. He changed his line! He thought I was passing on his left, and moved to his right... Right in front of me!!!

I grabbed a handful of brake, but the speed differential was too great. The force of the impact stood my bike on the front wheel before I was launched into the air.

When I came down to earth, I initially impacted on my stomach/ chest area.
The excessive speeds making me tumble whenever I struck the ground. While I tumbled my bike hit me two or three times. Where I'm not exactly sure. (An observer reported that Colin's crash the bike landed on him a few times as he tumbled back first into a steel Armco barrier). I finally came to rest and got up. I realized that not only did I not have any broken bones, but I also had been conscious the entire time.

The piece of Forcefield body armour that helped me most was the chest protector. With it inside the leathers everything feels tight, nothing feeling loose. It's just a safer feeling altogether".

The severe forces generated during the crash were enough to dislodge the inner lining from Colin's Helmet. The tumbling and resulting impacts trashed Colin's leathers and boots. His gloves, which did the job, were replaced. Colin's Forcefield Body Armour as designed survived the incident and were reused in a set of new leathers.

[RCDAVE]

All good stuff Jimbo. The Kriega bags are the best. I have had a lot of people ask where I get the stuff. You need to get me some cards. Telling someone is fine but they forget as soon as they start their bike. My back pack is the best fitting one I have owned. I have been buying camel backs and Oakley bags for years and these Kriega Bags blow them away.

I know this is about armor but I think the same stands for the bags ya carry also. Ya get what ya pay for. My tail bag hasn't come off the bike since I got it. Can fit 2 2 litre pepsi's in it too. lol

[Gecko]

cards printed this week. ill get you some ASAP.

Im about to runa a promo..
everyone keep your eyes peeled...

[RCDAVE]

check ya messages jim

[Over_Easy]

IMHO and experience Icon armor looks cool but is crap.

[voodoo]

I wear my icon vest under my leathers on the track. I wouldnt trust it for shit if that was the only think I was wearing like some of these cats do...

Ill speak for daves Kriega backpack also... very nice piece.

[Gecko]

look at it this way.
for the average human terminal velocity is 124 MPH.... thats the average speed for the average human that is skydiving before they pull the chute.

most of us have been faster than that on our bike at some point or another.

SOOOO...
Which Chute are you going to buy?
the the NON-Rated less expensive one that clearly states it was designed for elementary school phys-ed class?
(The non rated less expensive one that clearly states it was not designed for jumping out of airplanes?) <- note the new more PC version of the original statement Clap-Clap

Or the more expensive one that clearly states that it passed all government rating tests and is approved by the US Airborne Rangers HALO jump team?

[RCDAVE]

IMHO and experience Icon armor looks cool but is crap.

I sent jim(gecko) a PM about a wreck I witnessed. The rider had on an a icon vest and other gear. The rivets (plastic) were pulled through the plates on the back. The velcro around the SIDE was ripped free and the vest was basically destroyed. The amount of internal injuries were fatal. Was it the only cause NO but it failed bad. The EMT's didn't have to cut it off it was so bad. I will have one of these before the track day if anyone wants to see it while up there at the track. Icon stuff LOOKS cool but they dont take much abuse. Guys wear them outside because they look good but when truly tested, Not too good. And like he said they dont race. Street gear fashion at its finest.

[The_Jarhead]

clearly states it was designed for elementary school phys-ed class


wow that's a bold statement.

[Gecko]

wow that's a bold statement.

true, but it was not intended to be a reference to the people who wear them (yourself included)

It was only supposed to be a clear indication that the manufacturer did not design the product to meet demands of what most of us would use it for.

Is something better than nothing?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!

But if given a choice, most would prefer to know that what they are wearing was designed to withstand a 100mph Hishide at road atlanta, and keep going.

Admittedly, however, Mike is correct in how easily that statement could be misconstrued. It was not my intention at all. It was just one of my only references for what people use chutes for other than jumping out of planes.

[RCDAVE]

Funny, We have old parachutes in the rec centers for the kids to play with. I have one in my office. lol

[The_Jarhead]

true, but it was not intended to be a reference to the people who wear them (yourself included)

It was only supposed to be a clear indication that the manufacturer did not design the product to meet demands of what most of us would use it for.

Is something better than nothing?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!

But if given a choice, most would prefer to know that what they are wearing was designed to withstand a 100mph Hishide at road atlanta, and keep going.

Admittedly, however, Mike is correct in how easily that statement could be misconstrued. It was not my intention at all. It was just one of my only references for what people use chutes for other than jumping out of planes.

Actually I never even thought you were trying to say anything again people who have Icon gear. I am very surprised you took that turn at all.

All I was saying it's a pretty big jump to make from "Depending on the
nature and severity of the crash, it should be replaced after an
accident..."
to
" it was designed for elementary school phys-ed class"




I mean depending on the natuer and severity of any crash any gear may need to be replaced.

[Gecko]

Actually I never even thought you were trying to say anything again people who have Icon gear. I am very surprised you took that turn at all.

All I was saying it's a pretty big jump to make from "Depending on the
nature and severity of the crash, it should be replaced after an
accident..."
to
" it was designed for elementary school phys-ed class"




I mean depending on the natuer and severity of any crash any gear may need to be replaced.

I would agree with that.

[Bull]

I mean depending on the nature and severity of any crash any gear may need to be replaced.

this would be my question.. If you crash a Forcefield Armor or an Icon vest and they both have cracks in them. Is it assumed that the Forcefield Armor is safe to continue to use?

[Gecko]

this would be my question.. If you crash a Kriega or an Icon vest and they both have cracks in them. Is it assumed that the Kriegher is safe to continue to use?

Kriega packs / Forcefield Armor.

the Forcefield armor is made of a rubber honeycomb polymer.

Unless the temperatures are below freezing, they wont crack. But yes even with damage they are designed to continue.

in the 8 years my distributor has been importing them. they have not had a single replacement due to damage. and that includes all of their Sponsored racers.

[ApogeeNow]

look at it this way.
for the average human terminal velocity is 124 MPH.... thats the average speed for the average human that is skydiving before they pull the chute.

most of us have been faster than that on our bike at some point or another.

SOOOO...
Which Chute are you going to buy?
the the NON-Rated less expensive one that clearly states it was designed for elementary school phys-ed class?
(The non rated less expensive one that clearly states it was not designed for jumping out of airplanes?) <- note the new more PC version of the original statement Clap-Clap

Or the more expensive one that clearly states that it passed all government rating tests and is approved by the US Airborne Rangers HALO jump team?

Excellent anaolgy!
All makes sense!


Funny, We have old parachutes in the rec centers for the kids to play with. I have one in my office. lol

No Dave, don't get any ideas, you are not allowed to play with the old chutes by jumping off the shop's/garage's roof!
(I don't care that you were once an "active" Marine!)

[LOVRGRL]

I really like this thread and the information it has provided.

What is the difference between the Icon and Forcefield vest material/what their made of? Forcefield obviously has better quality (price) which is just safer alltogether, but is it put together differently to keep the rider safer than the Icon? Forcefield looks like it has a softer exterior.

Just trying to get details/understand, thank you. :)

[stevewfl]

All good stuff Jimbo. The Kriega bags are the best. I have had a lot of people ask where I get the stuff. You need to get me some cards. Telling someone is fine but they forget as soon as they start their bike. My back pack is the best fitting one I have owned. I have been buying camel backs and Oakley bags for years and these Kriega Bags blow them away.

I know this is about armor but I think the same stands for the bags ya carry also. Ya get what ya pay for. My tail bag hasn't come off the bike since I got it. Can fit 2 2 litre pepsi's in it too. lol

+1

My Kriega I bought from you has been through 9 states so far and put through hell and back and still looks brand new.

[Over_Easy]

Is it safe to assume the Forcefield is designed to be used under a jacket, preferably leather. Meaning it is designed more for impact than abrasion, with the jacket protecting you from the rash..

[StanO]

I cannot recommend the T-Pro Forcefield highly enough. I did LOTS of research on back protectors (many, many hours) before I started racing.

Just SOME of the reasons I chose it:
- Only back protector on the market that offered Level 2 CE protection
- As stated before, designed for multiple incidents
- Adjustable waist and shoulder straps
- Multiple sizes to ensure proper fit
- NOT cost prohibitive (some lesser designs were $300+)
- Soft rubber design (as opposed to hard plastic) - more comfortable AND more durable

In fact, it's SO comfortable I don't even realize that I'm wearing it at the track. I just wish I was wearing the chest protector a coupla times I've been down - woulda saved me some cracked ribs.

I'll try to find some links that had some very scientific research & testing that showed the Forcefield to be superior.

[The_Jarhead]

Don't get me wrong It's not that I don't think it's great gear.

It's just that I think it's a little misleading to say Everything else is "designed for elementary school phys-ed class" because Icon makes a piece of gear that isn't CE approved. Especially since a lot of Icon's gear is including their new Stryker back protector is CE approved.

[The_Jarhead]

I cannot recommend the T-Pro Forcefield highly enough. I did LOTS of research (like 12-16 HOURS on the web & talking to people) before I started racing.

Just SOME of the reasons I chose it:
- Only back protector on the market that offered Level 2 CE protection
- As stated before, designed for multiple incidents
- Adjustable waist and shoulder straps
- Multiple sizes to ensure proper fit
- NOT cost prohibitive (some lesser designs were $300+)
- Soft rubber design (as opposed to hard plastic) - more comfortable AND more durable

In fact, it's SO comfortable I don't even realize that I'm wearing it at the track. I just wish I was wearing the chest protector a coupla times I've been down - woulda saved me some cracked ribs.

I'll try to find some links that had some very scientific research & testing that showed the Forcefield to be superior.

That's not true at all

It might have been true at one point in time but a lot of other back prtector and vests are CE2

[StanO]

From http://www.johnsonleather.com/compare.htm

How Body Armour Works

There are three forces that leathers and armour have to resist.
ABRASION
IMPACT
PENETRATION

The friction generated by sliding over a rough track surface is absorbed by leathers but armour still has a part to play because if the armour is too rigid the abrasion will wear out sections of the leather much faster, exposing and displacing the armour more rapidly.

Good armour should also prevent too much friction from reaching the rider's skin.

Impact protection is the main aim of the armour.

A sharp blow should be spread over the largest possible area.

Good armour will also provide a degree of penetration resistance - i.e how well it will withstand a sharp edge or point.
Some makes of armour may provide better penetration protection but hard plastic can itself cause injury when it is forced into the skin


Why should you use Forcefield Body Armour?

Having determined that Abrasion, Impact and Penetration are the key functions of body armour, four other factors come into play when we look at individual body armour types. These factors are Thickness, Density, Flexibility and Transmitted Force.

The ideal protector would be thin, lightweight, flexible and capable of absorbing high energy levels. If it is very light it will be stiff and it will also be uncomfortable.

Forcefield X-TREME range offer the GREATEST overall performance.

They offer fantastic energy absorbing capabilities at the lowest possible thickness, e.g. 100 Joules at only 8mm !!!!

The impact absorption/thickness ratio is second to none. As they are so thin they are more comfortable and unobtrusive. Forcefield X-Treme GIVES YOU THE ULTIMATE IN PROTECTION.

Forcefield Limb protectors are specifically manufactured without using materials that could potentially injure the rider on impact.

The European requirement for EN1621-1:1997 - motorcycle impact protectors- states that limb protectors should transmit no greater than 35kN of transmitted force following a given impact energy of 50 joules. (Low performance)

Forcefield Powersports body armour has been designed to transmit no more than 35kN through to the body but impact energies of up to 100 joules have been achieved - i.e. TWICE THE EUROPEAN STANDARD.

In other words you can be hit harder and still have the same level of protection!

Forcefield Body Armour performing at 75-100 joules (The Cambridge Standard) represents "High performance protection".

The current European standard EN1621-1 has been in place since 1997 and has not kept up to date with the improvements in raw materials for many reasons.

[RCDAVE]

Thats some pretty good info stan. There ya go Jim. Word of mouth is as good as it gets. Sounds like stan has put it to the test.

[StanO]

Here's the most comprehensive info I've found on back protectors, and after reading it, was my main driving force in my choice. From the R6 forum.

http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/safety-equipment/1785-back-protectors-testing-ce-standards.html

PLEASE realize that the original post was made serveral years ago, but some of the info and rationale about CE impact standards and testing still applies. Many companies MAY OR MAY NOT have come out more highly evolved models than mentioned in the post linked above.

My advice: do you OWN research, and make the best decision for YOU. That way, you can have the most confidence that you make the best choice.

[The_Jarhead]

I want to state again that I am not in any way saying Forcefield isn't a great product.

Nor am I saying that anything else is better. If you notice I never mentioned another brand or model name at all

I just don't think it right to slander other brands and say things that are not true about them to try and prove how great Forcefield is.

[StanO]

That's not true at all

It might have been true at one point in time but a lot of other back prtector and vests are CE2

TOTALLY agree Mike. great point!

Forgot to mention that I did research and purchased mine back in 2005-06.

That's why I suggest that because technology and new products are advancing so quickly, that people do their own research and make their own decision.

[Gecko]

I really like this thread and the information it has provided.

What is the difference between the Icon and Forcefield vest material/what their made of? Forcefield obviously has better quality (price) which is just safer alltogether, but is it put together differently to keep the rider safer than the Icon? Forcefield looks like it has a softer exterior.

Just trying to get details/understand, thank you. :)

the primary difference between forcefield and MOST others is that most of the others use an "armadillo" hard plastic shell, which is both good and bad...
they are more prone to cracking and breaking outwriget because of the nature of the plastic. just like a fearing can crack. (this is not a comparison in strength, just an example of plastic breaking under stress)

additionally the Forcefield is both made of a rubber like polymer and in a honeycomb/waffle pattern to absorb impact.
Add that to the neoprene that is between the protector and your clothing and its just comfortable all around.

check the read here
http://www.gpshift.com/forcefield/Back%20Protector%20Pro%20L2/Back%20Protector%20Pro%20L2.html

and here

http://www.johnsonleather.com/technology.htm

Johnson leather is my importer by the way.


Is it safe to assume the Forcefield is designed to be used under a jacket, preferably leather. Meaning it is designed more for impact than abrasion, with the jacket protecting you from the rash..

The design is both for under jacket or over clothing if a jacket is not used. The adventure Harness covers all of the chest, back, elbows, fore arms, shoulders.

http://www.gpshift.com/forcefield/Extreme%20Harness%20Adventure/files/blocks_image_7_1.png

They also make a ZIP UP shirt style model in 2 forms.
one that does not have a back protector with only chest arms and shoulders and another that covers everything

This model is CE level 1 everywhere but has no back protector. the shoulders and arms are upgradeable to CE level 2

http://www.gpshift.com/forcefield/Undergarments/files/blocks_image_1_1.png

The "Tactical" model has complete protection all around, and was designed for police motorcycle rides as well as protection for SWAT and other units.
Armour includes:
Shoulder & Elbow - 70 Joules
Chest, Back, & Wrist - 50 Joules
Biceps & Forearm - 100 Joules

http://johnsonleather.com/images/T-Pro%20Tactical%20shirt.jpg


I cannot recommend the T-Pro Forcefield highly enough. I did LOTS of research on back protectors (many, many hours) before I started racing.

Just SOME of the reasons I chose it:
- Only back protector on the market that offered Level 2 CE protection
- As stated before, designed for multiple incidents
- Adjustable waist and shoulder straps
- Multiple sizes to ensure proper fit
- NOT cost prohibitive (some lesser designs were $300+)
- Soft rubber design (as opposed to hard plastic) - more comfortable AND more durable

In fact, it's SO comfortable I don't even realize that I'm wearing it at the track. I just wish I was wearing the chest protector a coupla times I've been down - woulda saved me some cracked ribs.

I'll try to find some links that had some very scientific research & testing that showed the Forcefield to be superior.

Thanks for the compliment...


Don't get me wrong It's not that I don't think it's great gear.

It's just that I think it's a little misleading to say Everything else is "designed for elementary school phys-ed class" because Icon makes a piece of gear that isn't CE approved. Especially since a lot of Icon's gear is including their new Stryker back protector is CE approved.

2 things here.
1) I really would have thought the RED re-write that was more politically correct would have prevented this kind of back lash. I clearly stated it was the only reference for another use of a chute i could think of.

and
2) the comment was more of an attempt to compare apples to apples vest to vest, and I was really more focused on their online statement about not being road racers, or designing products for them.
Their vest through their own admission is really just not designed for high speed impacts.

Yes their Stryker is CE lever 1 approved... and as i have said before. none of that matters because something is better than nothing ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Also it is important to note that I do not have personally experience with all brands,
therefore i cannot tell you that i know one is better than the other in any way.

I can only tell you what the independent reviews say.

[BERT-O]

cards printed this week. ill get you some ASAP.

Im about to runa a promo..
everyone keep your eyes peeled...

By far a good read! I would be interest to see this promo. Keep us updated. :D

[The_Jarhead]

2 things here.
1) I really would have thought the RED re-write that was more politically correct would have prevented this kind of back lash. I clearly stated it was the only reference for another use of a chute i could think of.

and
2) the comment was more of an attempt to compare apples to apples vest to vest, and I was really more focused on their online statement about not being road racers, or designing products for them.
Their vest through their own admission is really just not designed for high speed impacts.

Yes their Stryker is CE lever 1 approved... and as i have said before. none of that matters because something is better than nothing ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Also it is important to note that I do not have personally experience with all brands,
therefore i cannot tell you that i know one is better than the other in any way.

I can only tell you what the independent reviews say.

1st please stop trying to turn this in to me creating some kind of "backlash".
I have state multiple times that is not the case.

2nd You aren't comparing apples to apples and that is my point. You are comparing the top model from one line and comparing it with the bottom model of another line.

[Gecko]

By far a good read! I would be interest to see this promo. Keep us updated. :D

It will be up this week Bert.

[Gecko]

this just in from Alpinestars.

Thank you for contacting Alpinestars.

As per your inquiry, you need t remove the armor and inspect it.

If you are referring to a 'Bionic Back Protector' (or one of our products which use one) then provided the piece is still in tact with no holes, visible damage or parts missing this should be reusable.
Instead if you are referring armor like the GP Protectors, Bionic Jacket, or older Tech or RC back protectors then if there is some visible damage and you can feel the armor has been compressed at one point then this item should be replaced.

Hope that this has been on help.

Please feel free to contact us for any further doubt or request.

Thank you and kind regards.


Alpinestars S.p.a.
Asolo, Italy
ph. (+39) 0423 5286
fax. (+39) 0423 529571
email: talk-to-us@alpinestars.com
www.alpinestars.com

I think it would have to be a pretty light landing in the grass to not show any visible damage